Official Luthiers Forum!

Ok I got a dilemma...

I got a really nervous customer who absolutely do not trust anyone with fixing his guitar. The problem is a bridge that cracked through the string holes, so I suggested bridge replacement and bridge plate overlay. He however was really nervous about wood damage during a bridge removal and I assured him, and even demonstrated bridge removal in front of him that no wood damage will occur when properly done. He was fine with the removal process but he doesn't seem comfortable that I will make a copy of the bridge for his guitar out of an ebony blank, and insisted on a pre-made bridge. The problem is, his guitar is an Eastman, and it looks like a Martin however I explained to him that the saddle slot and the string hole, and even the external dimension may not line up perfectly because a Martin bridge is meant for a Martin, and I have no clue what off brand guitars do to their bridge (which is precisely the reason I make one from scratch). I explained to him that I can match them to the original with very good accuracy but he still thinks he should go with a bridge from the manufacturer. He said he'd write to Eastman and ask if he could buy a bridge for his specific model. I told him good luck...

Is it possible to buy a bridge for an off brand guitar, such as Yamaha and stuff? I know different manufacturers have their own shape and while Martin bridge is fairly common, I'm concerned that various manufacturers will have their own way of doing things, and as a result things do not always line up. I can't correct a misaligned string hole or saddle slot... it would involve moving the bridge.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I think a lot of companies will indeed sell replacement bridges to repair people. I'd wait to see what he here's from Eastman. Which reminds me, I need a Guild bridge....

Many brands are not available as after-market parts replacements if not most all brands with few exceptions. There was a recent thread on Frets.net about this very subject.

Even Martin who does offer pre-made replacements has suffered from dimensional differences that often make the replacement not a great fit with issues of the foot print being slightly different to the extent that the differences may expose the former foot print of the previous bridge.

So you make a bridge, it's simple and quick and how it's usually done. If the client does not respect your skill-set and understand that you are not in the business of spending your billable time sourcing parts that you are perfectly capable of making yourself I would suggest to the client that perhaps they might be happier taking their guitar somewhere else.

Never let a client tell you how to do your job. Remember you are supposed to be the experienced expert, the "trusted advisor" and to me that is part of the "value-add" of being a Luthier and offering high-quality work. If this is not how your client wants to do business let them know the facts, offer your solution, if they balk anyway this is a client who likely would be problematic.

Tai Fu : This is what went through my mind as soon as I read your post...!!!
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

I'm not a repair person but once again, Hesh makes perfect sense.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

+1 Tai fu, this could easily turn into a nightmare for you with a attitude like that from the client. Your doomed from the start.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

he's not a client / customer !!
he is a hemorrhoid !!
cut him off now before it is too late !

I agree 100% with Hesh.

I have also run into clients that are like the one you describe and from my experience I have found it better/easier/cheaper to decline those jobs. I learned the hard way it is best to do work for clients that respect what I do and refuse the ones that tell me how they want the work done. I do my best to be polite and helpful and tell them they would be best off sending their guitar to the manufacture to have repairs done.

In the end it just isn't worth giving my work away (since that is the usual outcome).

Just my 2c

Bob

Cracks between the bridge pin holes and that's the entire repair problem?

Why would you suggest a bridge replacement ?

That bridge can easily be repaired in place, with glue and ebony dust, and if done properly,will not be noticeable much at all.
.if the crack is wide, then a sliver/shim could be used along with ebony dust and glue .... at the very worst case, the bridge would have to be removed, crack repaired, and re glued to the top
.... all better options , my opinion, that replacing the bridge....
and what's with the bridge plate overlay? No need whatsoever to do that unless the bridge plate is fairly chewed-up... you didn't mention that if that is the case...certainly not necessary based on your diagnosis...
And 'off brand' guitar'... the few Eastman guitars I have personally seen were of very high quality, fit wise
I would probably use thin CA glue with ebony dust if no shim was used, if the crack was wider, I would probably use hide or fish glue.....

That's hysterical Fred and I nearly fell out of my chair reading it!!! Thanks for the laughs!!!

So now my favorite line may be "perhaps you and your hemorrhoids would be happier going elsewhere."

I have not seen the actual instrument, the customer wouldn't bring it unless he likes what I'm doing. All I could go on is some very poor quality photo but it looks like there may be a hairline crack in the bridge plate. Repairing the crack would not work because as soon as you string it up the crack will reappear.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Sorry for the repair advise Tai fu, I'll try to not let that happen again...
.

Me has enough of me own demons to deal with.
Customers like him is one reason why me no do repairs no more.

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.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Hesh hit the nail on the head.
Had a customer a few years ago who came to me complaining he couldn't find a tech that could do the job right, and wanting the very tiresome and incessant "lowest action possible".
I explained to him that the nature of his action will first depend on his technique, and that if he really wanted the strings on his strat to kiss the frets (his words, not mine), it would probably require a fret level and crown.
"No, I don't want that! Just lower the action all the way down, but make sure it doesn't buzz. I know a guy who will do it for $30."
I politely told him to let that guy do the job.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

That's what I was going to do, but the owner just can't seem to trust me to make a good copy of a bridge. I said I've done it for so long I could practically do it blindfolded (and I can) but he thinks "I should use factory original because the bridge is the most important part of the instrument". So I said good luck finding a replacement bridge for that particular guitar. I've been trying to convince him that I can make a perfect working copy of a bridge and that if you're looking for replacement bridge it's going to be more time, headache, etc. and he still won't listen.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Assuming the owner even brings the guitar... maybe I should just lie to him and tell him that I've found a factory original...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Thanks Jack, I have a similar repair to do in a bridge and was thinking this is how I could do it.

I have a neck reset to do on the same guitar, and the bridge may have been shaved a bit, so I was thinking of gluing a veneer of ebony to the underside of the bridge after repairing the crack to give it a little more strength and raise it slightly, to work with the reset neck. Has anyone done this, and have you had any noticeable change in sound as a result?

Probably better to just remake a new bridge... seems like a lot of work for a lot of potential to have issues. Also you need to figure out why the bridge cracked between string holes. 9 times out of 10 it's caused by a cracked bridge plate, or a bridge that was shaved too thin, not bridge pin too tight like most people think it is. In other words, it's a structural problem. You can fix the crack but unless you resolve the underlying issue the crack will come back.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Cracks between pins can be fixed and fixed well and invisibly too PROVIDED that you also address the causation.... Causation can be any number of things from loose bracing under the bridge, cracked or badly worn bridge plate, pins that don't fit and/or pin and string combinations that have not been properly accommodated, a loose bridge, even improper RH exposure and some of these other issues can create a perfect storm of sorts. Be sure to address the root issues first and then fix the crack, refit the pins AND strings and then bill the hemorrhoid... er.... I mean customer.....

Here's some food for thought for you... Be sure to watch the entire thing....

http://youtu.be/t5Q4iUBXNEM

Tai wrote:. maybe I should just lie to him and tell him that I've found a factory original...

That's the way Tai.... LIE to your potential customer.... If he has good sense, your customer will move on to a more experienced, honest repair person

Ok, very informative video, however I have only tried cold removal once, and it did not end well, so I still rather heat it and accept any possible finish damage (and repair them). Fortunately polyester finish on most cheap SGSO (shiny guitar shaped object) are almost bulletproof and you really have to char the finish to cause any real damage... for example Taylor's UV finish just handles heat really well. On the other hand shellac and even some NC lacquer doesn't like even a slight amount of heat, fortunately they are extremely easy to repair seamlessly.

That customer went to another music shop who said they removed a bridge cold with a utility knife... and he said he saw a LOT of tear out, and they said it was impossible to remove a bridge without tear outs. I said that's BS and they're butchering the guitar, and demonstrated TWICE that I was able to remove the bridge without significant tear out (there were some on one but it's nowhere near the edge and it's very minor). I've done enough work for this customer...

In my experience SGSO has this strange glue that is actually easy to remove once heated. In most case they just pop right off without any damage to either the bridge or the wood.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I agree with Jack Tia Fu, never lie to a client or anyone else for that matter but I'm not here to give that kind of advice.

Yeah often the glue on Asian instruments is a urea formaldihyde (spelling, this office Mac has the speal checker off....) that will not release with heat. This is what makes them "unservicable" along with doweled neck joints.

If this guy went somewhere else it's likely that it's a good thing anyway.

A quick note on inexpensive import instruments. Many Lutheirs do not want to work on them but I disagree with this. My personal belief is that everyone deserves to have great music in their lives so I always try to do the best possible work even on cheap-arse instruments. They can be set-up well and bridge can even be reglued. Neck resets are a different matter and cost prohibitive.

I have no problem fixing a $150 Tak and then moving on to a 1936 Martin OOO-18. It's all good to me!

Merry Christmas to you Tia Fu!!!

Fortunately they are not glued all that well... because they weren't too hard to remove once heated. I did encounter one inexpensive guitar where the bridge is unremovable no matter the heat... it was an unwanted guitar but I wanted to demonstrate bridge removal. I guess that was glued with urea formaldehyde.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

It wasn't bolted on ala Gibson with two hidden bolts under the mother of toilet seat genuine, imitation pearl dots was it....

Filippo that's likely banana crate wood, banana crate tonewood.....

Instruments being worth fixing or not is in my view a collaborative decision between the current steward of the instrument aka owner and the repair person. Lots of instruments have much more meaning to the owner than how much they are listed for at Guitar C*nter.

In the repair business you take the good with the bad but above all be there for your clients. That's my view and I'm sticking to it...

Today I saved a $150 Tak from the dumpster with a badly back-bowed neck. The little girl that it belonged to was almost in tears she was so happy to get her guitar back in playing condition. Maybe some day she will be the next Pussy Riot!

I truly love this work!!!!

The guitar was identified as an Eastman
..I have a few and they were fairly decent guitars for a retail of about 1500.00 ....
They compared favorably to the Larrivees I had seen similarly priced

They were by no means 'junk' guitars....